Faults

In the country of origin, UK, at the end of the written Breed Standard for the Staffordshire Bull Terrier it is stated: 

“Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work.”

This is a good reminder to not only look for the balanced Stafford, remember its origin, but also to balance your judging when in the ring with the breed. The AKC Breed Standard for the Stafford lists only three ‘faults’ and only three ‘serious faults’. Fault judging is to be avoided but these six points should be kept in mind when you find yourself faced with similar virtuous examples in your ring from which to select from. 

Faults:

  • “Non-conformity with heights to weights limits” – Our Standard calls for dogs 28-38lbs, bitches 24-34lbs with both dogs and bitches being 14” – 16” at withers. They should be balanced height to weight. BALANCE is the key word here. Get familiar with what 34lb bitches and 38lb dogs look and feel like. And remember a 14” dog is in Standard and is  balanced at 28lbs just as a 16” bitch is in Standard and balanced at 34lbs. 
  • Dark eye preferred but may bear some relation to coat color. Light eyes or pink eye rims to be considered a fault, except that where the coat surrounding the eye is white the eye rim may be pink.” This means we prefer a dark eye but in a red or brindle dog, for example, there can be some consideration for a lighter brown eye. We do not want to see yellow, gray or blue eyes at all no matter what coat color. And of course we prefer some pigment on the white coated dogs eyes – in some countries Standards it asks for full pigment – AKC does not but its always best if a Stafford does show good pigment – we do not want pink rims.
  • A tail that is too long or badly curled is a fault.” This is self explanatory but to be taken into consideration as to the above paragraph regarding degree and affect upon health. Also, in the original point system the tail was valued at only 5 points. I’ve heard it said that if the Stafford has one thats half the points right there. Make note that nowhere in our Standard does it mention short tails. It is worded as such: “The tail is undocked, of medium length, low set, tapering to a point and carried rather low. It should not curl much and may be likened to an old-fashioned pump handle. A tail that is too long or badly curled is a fault.”

Serious faults:

  • Pink (Dudley) nose to be considered a serious fault.” The Stafford nose needs to be black. Some argument of consideration could be made for the blue Stafford but even then we want the darkest possible pigmentation so that the nose appears black. At no time should there be any lacking of pigment on the nose leather on a dog of showing age.
  • Full drop or full prick to be considered a serious fault.” A small, thin leathered tight ear held back close to the head would be preferred and safest in its original function, however there is consideration for a half prick ear. This means half, not 3/4 and never full drop or full prick. Either of those not only would affect hazard in its original function, but also gives a foreign expression. As well this differentiates the breed from other terriers. 
  • The badly undershot or overshot bite is a serious fault.” The scissor bite is called for, and we want large well placed canines but as we also strive for a strong muzzle and underjaw, a slight under/over may not affect the original function – however – converging canines would affect the health and comfort of the Stafford even though it is not mentioned in the standard. Note the word ‘badly’ is mentioned here. A slightly under or overshot bite is a fault to be considered by the degree of misplacement.

All dogs have ‘faults’. Every. Single. One. Even those belonging to kennel blind breeders have faults. This is why we do not fault judge. Just assume they exist and find the virtues. I do a game called list 5 virtues with every dog and by doing that you will see things in a more positive light. I absolutely do not ignore the standard and I do take note of serious faults – but again even if I am presented with a badly undershot full drop eared spotted nosed Stafford in my ring there must be some virtue as well. That Stafford wont get far in the show ring but I still try to look for any virtue. That Stafford will lack breed type IMO which is one of the very first things I look for.

Again, it is worth repeating – please keep in mind the exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work when judging this breed. With only these few faults mentioned they should be easy to keep in mind. 

The Name Explains The Breed

The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a balanced blend of Bull plus Terrier but when we say we strive for an equal blend, are we picturing in our mind the original breeds used or modern day versions? Many people today are picturing the modern day version of the English/British Bulldog. This way of thinking is dangerous to the health and future of the Stafford. If that is the blend one is attempting to reward in a show ring or produce as breeders, one will certainly find shorter legs/upper arm, straight stifles, barreled rib, short muzzles, wrinkles, bunchy muscle, buggy eyes, lippy muzzles, converging canines and overlong soft palate.  Aside from this we would find health issues that go along with that type of animal which was not intended as the athletic gladiator the Stafford was bred to be.

The original Bulldogs used to create the Stafford looked more like the athletic bodies of an American Bulldog, Boxer and similar breeds but without the exagerations seen today. This is not something that can be easily disputed as it is shown many times in book after book on the history of the Stafford. The original Bulldog used to create the Stafford didnt resemble what we picture as a Bulldog of today. He was leggier, more athletic, less wrinkle, and in general a beautiful example of a gladiator. We can see why this breed was chosen, for he was portrayed to be powerful, courageous, tenacious and tough, but still a reliable guardian with an off duty quietness and affection for humans.

The other half of the ‘mix‘ is said to have been either a now extinct breed known then as the “White English Terrier” or the ‘Black and Tan Terrier” It may have resembled the Manchester Terrier which is one reason we have a disqualification in our Standard for Black & Tan as this pattern can possibly overtake a breed and we love our color variations we have today. 

“The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a smooth-coated dog. It should be of great strength for its size and, although muscular, should be active and agile.”

The Stafford is an efficient athlete. Everything about him should reflect this. There are to be no exaggeration in his make-up.  Excess would inhibit the breed’s original function as well as its health.

He needs enough bone, enough muscle, and enough substance to support his powerful, athletic endeavors,  but not an excess of any of these features.  He will need strength and vigor, allied with speed and suppleness.  The Stafford should have stamina in abundance. He should feel hard to the touch, never soft.

The cloddy, heavy-boned, over muscled, exaggerated dog may look impressive but he’ll lack the speed, agility and stamina of the athlete. The racy, light-boned dog may be agile and athletic, but will lack strength and resilience. 

The one in the middle will get the job done.

“I don’t want a show dog, I just want a pet.”

“I don’t want a show dog, I just want a pet.”

This is one of the most pervasive sentiments that puppy buyers, especially families, express when they’re looking for a dog. What they really mean, of course, is that they don’t want a show BREEDER – don’t want to pay the high price they think show breeders charge, don’t want to go through the often-invasive interview process, and think that they’re getting a better deal or a real bargain because they can get a Lab for $300 or a Shepherd for
$150.

I want you to change your mind. I want you to not only realize the benefits of buying a show-bred dog, I want you to INSIST on a show-bred dog. And I want you to realize that the cheap dog is really the one that’s the rip-off. And then I want you to go be obnoxious and, when your workmate says she’s getting a puppy because her neighbor, who raises them, will give her one for free, or when your brother-in-law announces that they’re buying a goldendoodle for the kids, I want you to launch yourself into their solar plexus and steal their wallets and their car keys.

Here’s why:

If I ask you why you want a Maltese, or a Lab, or a Leonberger, or a Cardigan, I would bet you’re not going to talk about how much you like their color. You’re going to tell me things about personality, ability (to perform a specific task), relationships with other animals or humans, size, coat,
temperament, and so on. You’ll describe playing ball, or how affectionate you’ve heard that they are, or how well they get along with kids.

The things you will be looking for aren’t the things that describe just “dog”; they’ll be the things that make this particular breed unique and unlike other breeds.

That’s where people have made the right initial decision – they’ve taken the time and made the effort to understand that there are differences between breeds and that they should get one that at least comes close to matching their picture of what they want a dog to be.

Their next step, tragically, is that they go out and find a dog of that breed for as little money and with as much ease as possible.

You need to realize that when you do this, you’re going to the used car dealership, WATCHING them pry the “Audi” plate off a new car, observing them as they use Bondo to stick it on a ’98 Corolla, and then writing them a check and feeling smug that you got an Audi for so little.

It is no bargain.

Those things that distinguish the breed you want from the generic world of “dog” are only there because somebody worked really hard to get them there. And as soon as that work ceases, the dog, no matter how purebred, begins to revert to the generic. That doesn’t mean you won’t get a good dog – the magic and the blessing of dogs is that they are so hard to mess up, in their good souls and minds, that even the most hideously bred one can still be a great dog – but it will not be a good Shepherd, or good Puli, or a good Cardigan. You will not get the specialized abilities, tendencies, or talents of the breed.

If you don’t NEED those special abilities or the predictability of a particular breed, you should not be buying a dog at all. You should go rescue one. That way you’re saving a life and not putting money in pockets where it does not belong.

If you want a purebred and you know that a rescue is not going to fit the bill, the absolute WORST thing you can do is assume that a name equals anything. They really are nothing more than name plates on cars. What matters is whether the engineering and design and service department back up the name plate, so you have some expectation that you’re walking away with more than a label.

Keeping a group of dogs looking and acting like their breed is hard, HARD work. If you do not get the impression that the breeder you’re considering is working that hard, is that dedicated to the breed, is struggling to produce dogs that are more than a breed name, you are getting no bargain; you are only getting ripped off.

-Author unknown

Just be decent

Anytime your name appears on a list that someone took the time to calculate and post and its some sort of recognition or achievement – be proud! It’s exciting to see your hard work be recognized no matter how or what the criteria were for that recognition. You went out and did something and got recognized in a positive manner by somebody out there and it got shared with the world. Go you! I know I am proud of you! Congratulations!

Sadly, social media allows for all the negative Nancy’s to freely post their unkind comments on the sharing of the list for whatever negative reasons negative people have for being negative. Thats simply who they are. It’s their nature. They are not able to scroll on by quietly, muttering their nasty negative comments to themselves or their housemates. . . . they just can’t. In fact some are such party poopers they even take the time to seek out anytime the list is posted just to be able to announce why that achievement is unimportant. They feel the world needs to have this information. They deem it insignificant badly calculated, therefore the whole world of social media must be told of this fact.

Who knows why these type of people act like this. What other people do is their business. It reflects badly upon those who mock these achievements, not those on these celebratory lists . . . no matter how they are calculated, no matter where they are published, no matter how unimportant some people think them to be.

To all who see their name on a list for recognition of an achievement of any type – WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOO! You went out and did a thing! Be happy! Be proud. You are amazing. Thank you for doing something and its fantastic you were recognized!

Also – your actions are noticed by a lot of people. We see you there. Keep on being you and doing your thing. ??

But I cant find a BLUE puppy!

I see a lot of people new to the world of Staffords say that they are looking for a ‘blue’ and asking how to find one from a good breeder. Although I have addressed this topic several times in my blog the posts do tend to get lost over time so let me discuss this again. 

First of all – there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a color preference when looking for a pet. In Staffords we will often, mostly, see breeders who only own reds or only piebalds or only brindle/black brindle. Its normal to have preferences. 

Second, when seeking a new Stafford puppy no matter what color you are thinking about buying color and price should be the last part of the equation but its usually first thing we hear asked about. Again, normal – this is mainly due to not understanding genetics and responsible breeding. Usually, once a new buyer learns the differences in how different breeders operate they know better what to look for and what is a red flag to run from. 

I also understand that just like there are varying types of breeders, there also are varying types of buyers. Some just want to send money and get a puppy like an Amazon order. Tell the breeder what color, sex and price you are willing to pay and send your deposit – then receive your puppy. It is my very strong opinion this is a horrible way to buy an animal which will be living with you for hopefully up to 16+ years. 

So here is some more information – take it for what its worth – My opinions are based upon 19+ years of helping with Stafford rescue, owning, breeding, studying the breed and mentoring others.  What I am about to say is just my understanding and my views based upon my personal experiences. Your mileage may vary. 

When looking for a Stafford look for a breeder whom you can trust, who will offer support and mentorship and who is not just simply paying their bills by making puppies. Its pretty easy to get around a slick website just with a phone call, but if you still aren’t sure ask them some questions or send an introductory email. There is a popular list of ten essential questions to ask but really – make a list of issues important to you and ask. You are interviewing the breeder as much as they are interviewing you. At least – there SHOULD be interviewing going on. If not and all you get is – send a deposit – IMO that’s a red flag folks. You may want to look at what health testing is being done. Possibly look at how they raise their own dogs. You might wish to see living conditions where their dogs live and where puppies are raised. Perhaps have a look at how involved they are in the Stafford community. Mostly – read the contracts you are required to sign. Are you okay with a strict contract or are you seeking a no strings attached sale? We are all okay with different agreements. Just be comfortable with your purchase.

The main thing to concern yourself about as far as wanting a blue Stafford is this – is the breeder producing blue on purpose? Are they putting two blue parents together knowing they will get blue puppies? Is the only color they produce blue? Is every single litter all blue or blue/white? What do their dogs look like? Do they look the same as the brindles or reds or piebalds you see on the internet from breeders you think are responsible people? Do they look like Staffords? Are you being fed lines about how they are producing ‘leggier/sporty/champion pedigrees’ or any other marketing flash? Are they more concerned about selling puppies than they are about getting to know you and how their puppy will live?

Unlike when a breeder mates two reds or two black brindles, when two blues are put together this is purposeful dilute combination breeding. This is breeding for a specific market instead of breeding for the whole dog. Breeding should be done carefully with much attention focused on health, temperament, structure, type and more. It should NOT be only about the color! Breeding only red or black brindle or white is an entirely different conversation – and (except for all white) usually doesn’t have the health issues which continuously mating blue to blue only has. They will insist this is not true. They will insist their blues have no health or temperament issues. Ask to see examples of DCA or unstable temperaments. See if they respond with an honest answer. Dilute Color Alopecia is possible in any dilute animal but mostly in generationally produced dilutes.

Consider this – if you take a glass of iced tea and mix it with the same volume of plain water you now have 50% tea, 50% water (the water representing dilute). Now take that mix and again mix with a glass of plain water. Now you have 75% water and 25% tea. Take this mix and again combine with plain water. At what point are you simply mixing water with water with zero amount of iced tea? Do you see what I am getting at? Now of course this is a highly simple example of how dilute to dilute genetics works and I don’t mean to be condescending at all but it also cannot be ignored. You lose type, temperament, stability – you don’t really know what you have since this is a dilute gene, which acts differently from a non dilute genetic mix.

Putting two dilute affected dogs together can only produce dilute affected dogs. What’s wrong with dilute to dilute you ask? Genetically, its rather complicated and can possibly lead to many long term issues, but the easy answer is dilute to dilute is furthering the dilutions causing other problems to arise such as allergy problems, coat breakage, coat thinning, alopecia, blowing coat, lacking breed type, lacking pigment, losing eye/nose/pad color and when done often enough the lack of breed type extends to temperament as well. We (rescue around the world) have seen ‘Staffords’ from long lines of dilute to dilute who are not as stable in temperament as the Stafford has always been known for. This is not a good thing. We see yellow eyes, bad feet, fleshy muzzles, fear aggression, shyness and other problems which seem to appear more often in these blue to blue produced Staffords. I can’t explain this scientifically but I have observed it. So that blue Stafford breeder who is telling you this cannot be true – well, they simply haven’t seen it but we have.

If a breeder is putting two brindles together and they get a blue puppy that’s completely different. If a breeder owns a blue bitch and puts her to a brindle/black brindle dog the responsible thing to do is coat color DNA testing (now that this tool is available) to make sure that dog is not a dilute carrier. A black brindle dog who is a carrier should ideally only be used on a bitch who is not a carrier, and vice versa. These combinations are not as much of a health risk as continuous blue to blue, in my opinion. I bred my brindle bitch to a brindle dog who was known to have produced a dilute in the past. This was prior to coat color DNA testing being available. Instead I, and my mentors, researched pedigrees and we went back 9 generations without finding evidence of a blue puppy. We felt safe. Guess what we got? Two blue puppies! It happens. I kept one and I sold one. He was sold on a no breeding contract. My blue bitch was only bred to non dilute carriers and only produced brindle and black brindle. She also has a very different coat from the non dilutes we own. Her coat breaks easily, gets bleached in the sun easily and she blows her coat something fierce twice a year! Currently she is so bald I have to use sunscreen on her. The coat will come back and it will look beautiful and dark again, but I mention this b/c it is different from her non dilute family members. (*UPDATE* – once she was spayed her thinning coat never came back fully so it is linked to hormones as well which could explain the temperament issues we have seen in generationally produced blue to blue Staffords in rescue). We simply do not know enough genetically speaking about dilute to dilute breeding to have all the answers.

The argument put forth by the masses is that breeders purposefully breeding blue to blue to blue to blue are only in it for the money. Sure, I would agree, no doubt this is the case – however – many breeders who only breed red to red, black brindle to black brindle, piebald to piebald can essentially be guilty of this as well so that argument fails for me. For me its more a matter of preserving the breed in ALL aspects. There are bad breeders of all colors and types. I know of some horrific situations coming out of kennels of colors other than just blue from my time helping rescue and also what I have observed in the show world. There are some excellent very slick and shiny fancy salespeople out there. Do your homework. If you insist you ONLY want a blue Stafford puppy – thats fine too – let a reputable breeder help you locate one from another responsible breeder who just happened to get some blue ones in a litter of non dilute puppies. Same rules apply – be comfortable with what you buy.

All I am saying here is STOP looking for your puppy and START looking for your breeder. 

Looking for a Stafford puppy?

We receive emails and calls (sometimes even texts) almost daily from people looking to add a Stafford puppy to their home. There are days when I feel nobody really takes the time to read our website and it’s just an email to every breeder they can find asking if a puppy is for sale…..more on this later.

For now I want to compile a list of those breeders whom we feel we can recommend with a clear conscience to people looking. I assume they will all buy one from someplace so I may as well try to steer them to people whom I respect. My criteria to be on my list are not unreasonable and each breeder would not have to meet them all – criteria are the following:

• Following some sort of enrichment protocol with each puppy

• Be willing and able to prove basic health testing, whether by providing certificates or OFA link, not only a ‘clear by parentage’ statement.

• Be willing to remain in contact with buyers for support if needed

• Be willing to take back the puppy for any reason, at any age.

• Register the puppy with AKC prior to them leaving the breeders home

• Microchip and register the chip prior to the puppy leaving the breeders home.

• Not require showing/breeding/puppies back in contract

• Their dogs live in the home and not in kennel runs full time

• Mentor!

I honestly do not feel this is unrealistic. Of course we do much more than this list but this is the basics I would ask of a breeder whom I were to recommend. I know this breed doesn’t have enough responsible breeders producing enough puppies for each person who wants to buy one. And I also know that this is why there are so many irresponsible breeders out there paying their bills off their dogs. Pumping out puppies to fill a demand is what happens. They are seeing a void and filling that void and it would cost them time and money to do things the way we do them. I get that. I also know I cannot control what other people do. Its not my business.

When it becomes my business is when we get them in shelters, rescue, rehome situations and when the Staffords are being used for creating mix breeds or sold to people who honestly have no clue about the breed. This is when we see trouble. Recently I saw a post on NextDoor from a person who was giving away their ‘Stafford’ they bought from a breeder I know well because they were never told that the dog could possibly mature to not like other animals. They took the Stafford to dog parks and on off lead walks all the time and one day it killed another dog. They were shocked. The fact a Stafford grew up and killed another dog does not shock me but what DOES is that they HAD NO CLUE this was possible.

Thus I am compiling a list of breeders whom I feel comfortable suggesting to those contacting me.

So you think you want a Stafford?

Every morning I check my email and usually see a request or two for a Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppy or re-home/rescue. Since I run The Stafford Knot and rescue pages I hear all the time how “I have had ‘staffy’ mixes, or I have had ‘pit bull dogs’ or some other story about how prepared they are and how familiar they are with Staffords. I bite my tongue sometimes but often I come right out and tell the people – no…no you didn’t own a Stafford ‘mix’ or a real APBT and even if you did you honestly have no idea what a purebred Stafford is like to live with.

Shelters will label all boxy headed bulldog looking mix breeds as ‘staffy mix’ because that will adopt our more easily than pit bull mix will. Therefore 1000’s of people think they own a ‘Staffordshire’ and will swear to the end of their lives that is true. Then they feel a purebred Stafford is the same as all of the mixed breeds out there. Again, not true. But you cannot convince these people. Temperament of a Stafford is so much busier than most APBT mixes. There are similarities, but once you have spent time with purebred Staffords you can just ‘feel’ or ‘see’ a difference… the nuances may be small but they are there.

This is not the breed for everyone.

I have told countless people after hearing what they are seeking to look at other breeds. Sometimes this is met with resentment, anger, arguments . . . and other times I am thanked for my honesty. I have seen Staffords in shelter pulls for rescue who were sold to the wrong families and released due to just being Staffords. I have had owner surrenders come in because ‘the dog cant stop moving, too energetic, too mouthy, hates my neighbors dog/cat, jumps on people/furniture/my head. . . . knocks the kids down, too pushy trying to be on the baby’……you name it, I have heard it. AND I could have told these people prior to the sale they weren’t a good match.

Now, don’t misunderstand what I am telling you….Staffords are AMAZING companions….just not for every person/home/family….in my opinion. There are other people who think anyone can own the breed. Since being tightly involved in Stafford rescue for 16 years now I know this not to be true. Same way as a sighthound or a northern breed may not be the right breeds for our home. Sure, we could manage one….but if we are honest we aren’t a good match for either.

Two years ago my good friend John posted to his FB wall his thoughts on the topic:

“New stafford owners should be made aware of a few things before they take the plunge. Staffords are not average dogs, they are other than average. If you think your Stafford is strong, it’s probably stronger than you think. It can probably run faster and jump higher than you think too. They should not be underestimated. They have a lot of energy. They love people and can’t be cool about it. They might dislike other animals and they can’t be cool about that either. They need human companionship. They need to be with you. They play rough. They might play with their teeth. They’re affectionate to a fault. They can be relentless. They’ll be the best dog you’ll ever have, but people need to understand them going in, and be ready for the ride.”

John is a wise man in more ways than I can count. Trust his words.

Do dogs need fruit in a raw diet?

I hear some raw feeders say dogs only need meat protein, organ and bone and no veggie or fruit in their diets. I used to be one of those thinkers….now after taking the course in raw nutrition I understand it further. Dogs DO need the fruits and vegetables. They use them not as a ‘food’ per se but think of it like this – the fruits aren’t in the diet to feed your dog. They’re there to feed his commensal bacteria. Those commensal bacteria eat the polyphenols in the berries then poop out short chain fatty acids that talk to your dog’s brain which will control a large part of his immune system, fight free radicals and cancer and strengthen his intestinal lining. So – when the dogs are free feeding on our blueberry bushes each August I let them.

Thank you to Dana Scott for this information.

But I want a blue puppy…..

Staffords come in many colors and while many of us have personal preferences about the color of a future member of the family, Type – Temperament – Soundness should come before your preferred color.Black Brindle, Brindle, Red, Faun, Pied (white with red or brindle patches), solid white and blue are all accepted colors in the AKC Staffordshire Bull Terrier Breed Standard. Black and Tan (with or without white) and Liver are also genetically possible colors in the breed and in the USA they are considered a disqualification, other parts of the world they are undesirable.Merle is NOT a color in our breed genetics, if you see a merle stafford consider it a bully mix and not a purebred staffordIf you find a breeder breeding for any of the following, please consider their motives before purchasing a puppy from them

  • Breeding specifically for blue (dilute of black) and only blue or a non standard color
  • Breeding 2 blue staffords together
  • One color sold for more money than another color – a reputable breeder will sell all pups at the same price regardless of color or sex

Breeding dilute to dilute can not only cause a lack in breed type and temperament, but has also been shown to cause health issues with those puppies. If you really just love blue then go to a breeder who not only fully health tests and can prove results (L2-HGA, HC, PHPV, CERF, Cardiac, OFA Hip, Patella) has non dilute Staffords which carry one copy of the dilute coat color gene and occasionally produce dilute coated puppies.As breeders we can’t order up specific colors and markings when we plan a litter, though we can genetically know what combinations the parents are capable of producing. White socks or a black eye patch are all up to mother nature.Find a breeder who’s dogs you like, let them know you lifestyle and what you are looking to do with your new pet and let them pick the puppy that will fit that lifestyle, whatever color they happen to be…..


Thank you Jodie Berry for helping to write the above article which mirrors the sentiments of many reputable Stafford breeders everywhere. I have written on this topic extensively since we had a litter from two brindles which produced two blues. Now breeders have access to reliable DNA coat color testing so we no longer need to get surprises. Stop shopping for color and start looking for a breeder who can help guide and mentor you through the process of finding your next healthy, well bred puppy. Please heed the well meaning advice of those who have experience and are willing to share their knowledge with you. We have this breed close to our hearts and are seeking to preserve it and introduce people to the breed in ways which promote the well being of Staffordshire Bull terriers – not pay our bills off of them.